About this "terrorism" crap

i knooowww....and from your wow...simply wow...look thru my eyes and thats the same feeling i get when i read one of verds posts...

we have had the pleasure to view the extremes of both sides here ladies and gentlemen...its not pleasant...but...it is enlightening...it goes to show how deeply people can believe...one way or the other...and it may not make sense to the..lack of a better word...opposing side...this has been a great experience and exercise in debate...and a deeper insight of that "human nature" thing that i have mentioned before in another thread..extremists are everywhere...not just in the muslim religion..it happens in christianity..and...non-religion or faith...

 

That theory about atheism is extremely weak. Just about every point made can be turned around and thrown back at religion.

This seems like it applies to arguing against religion more than atheism. For example, the world is billions of years old. Evidence? Rocks, fossils, geography. Life evolved from single cell organisms? Evidence? Sitting in petree dishes in labs. Cloned animals. You can't clone an animal without some understanding of how life forms from its most basic shape. Tangible evidence. You can't say your god is the driving force behind whatever makes the universe work either, because that is an assumption. On the other side of the argument: God exists. Evidence? ....I've felt him. The bible/koran/whatever says he exists. I believe he exists. I see him in his creation every day, etc etc. He created the world in 6 days. Evidence? Bible says so. Jesus existed and was the son of this supreme being god. Evidence? Bible says so.

This is why I find it amusing when I come across people so dedicated to this particular idea. It is no more credible than santa clause or the tooth fairy, yet so many people blindly believe it.

One thousand years from now, should religion not have destroyed man by then, or even more unfortunate, should man not have destroyed religion, he will be worshiping a different god from a different bible with a different jesus preaching different teachings. Likewise, people will be blowing themselves and thousands of innocent bystanders apart screaming a different god's name, and crashing planes into more buildings in the name of Allah 2.

History is rife with grief, anguish, and death, and religion is the culprit.

 

Yes. Yes it is, and thank you for asking, because it gives me the opportunity to show you exactly why the other side of the fence makes more sense. (That should be a bumper sticker.)

I'm glad you said that early, because it gives me an opportunity to get it out of the way early. First let me play a game with you guys. Ready? Here goes:

You're all atheists.

Yes, you are. Each and every person in this thread is an atheist, and understands exactly what its like to be an atheist. Everyone. You know why? Because nobody here believes in Gerichosigal, the Ultra Toaster God. Nobody. Not even I do, and I invented him. You guys are all atheists when it comes to Gerichosigal.

Chances are, you're also atheists when it comes to Zeus, Poseidon, Odin, Loki, Baal, Allah, Buddha, The Flying Speghetti Monster, Ra, Isis, etc., etc. You are all atheists to these gods. You don't believe in them. To you, they aren't real.

There's a quote I happen to love that I will paraphrase: One generation's religion is another generation's fiction. At one point or another, people believed these gods were all very real, and they all had very large religions... almost all of which no longer exist, and most poeple consider them myth and fable, and nothing more.

So what's so odd about going one god more? What's so drastically different? So instead of not believing in 9,999 gods like the rest of you, I don't believe in 10,000. That makes me so different? So morally bankrupt?

Actually, there is some VERY good evidence. For example, the factual erroneousness of the holy books of the major religions. The world was not created in six days. Females were not created by using the rib of a male. The universe began a some-odd 13 billion years ago and is still expanding. There were once dinosaurs. We evolved from simpler organisms to these beings of marvelous, if imperfect, complexity. The holy books all make claims that have since been proven totally wrong.

Sickness isn't caused by demons. Insanity is not the result of being possessed by demons. The world isn't the center of the universe, and the moon doesn't generate its own light. This is all stuff we take for granted, and yet is in opposition to what the holy books say.

Not to mention the fact that religion never answers the question: Who created god? The common reply to this is that god always was. That he exists outside of time and blah blah blah. Which is odd. If he exists outside of time, why did he need six days (measurement of time) to invent a planet so tiny that, if seen from Pluto, appears as merely a small, blue speck in a sea of black nothingness?

If god made everything, than what made god? This is an infinite loop... something will always have to make the thing before it, and here's the kicker: A being of such enormous improbability as god (to create something as improbable as the universe) would require a being or entity of EVEN GREATER improbability to bring it into being.

All of this stands as evidence that god, as the major religions understand him (as a great big old guy in the sky who's very concerned with what people do when they're naked) does not exist. The only evidence missing is direct proof, such as, say, the real 'creator of all things' stepping forward and saying, hey, sorry, no, it was me. (By the way, I suggest reading the book A Hole in the Universe. It would seem everything actually did come from nothing, and the theories of how this happened makes sense, even if it is a little hard to wrap one's brain around. Quantum physics can be fun, if confusing.)

The point here is that, in ANY debate worth having, "lack of evidence as evidence" doesn't carry a lot of weight, especially if evidence HAS been presented and the believers in question choose to ignore it out of convenience.

As I challanged Manitou earlier, please prove, here, the non-existence of Gerichosigal, the Toaster God.

When you fail to do this, please tell me how this makes Yahweh any different. And yes, your suspicions are correct... I have an explenation for you waiting in the wings when you indeed fail to adequately explain that away.

We do, religious people simply ignore it. It's like someone saying, "Bring me apples!" and when apples are put in front of him, he looks around and says, "I see no apples! Bring me apples!" How do you satisfy him, if he chooses not to see the apples?

What theistic proofs are there? Tell me. And please, let's leave the Bible, a great work of fiction, out of this. Please show me real-life examples or evidence of god's existence. And again, please keep in mind, I'm not concerned or interested with "what you feel in your heart". I don't even need a miracle. Just show me something, anything, that prove's gods existence.

You claim that proving a negative is hard because its not possible? Fine. I'll challange you, then, to prove a positive. Give me evidence of god's existence, please.

^^^ Unlike these pieces of "evidence". That's like saying Harry Potter is a real person because there's books written about him. And I'm sorry, but I laugh every time someone says that god is real because bible prophesy is fulfilled... in later chapters of the bible. ROFL!

I was going to quote from the rest of your post, but most of the middle portion is just ramblings of points you've already made and I've already challanged above, so I'll skip ahead.

Don't delude yourself. Atheists don't "attack Christianity" in specific. Atheists call into question all religion, everywhere. Christianity just so happens to be the largest religion around here, so its the easiest target. I would happily relagate all of my arguments to Islam, if I didn't think you'd all agree with me and follow you posts up with, "Thank the Lord Almighty Jesus Christ that we don't believe in that garbage."

It's funny that you mention the vacuum. Just because god doesn't exist, doesn't mean theres a giant, vaguely Santa Claus-shaped hole in the sky where there should be some jolly old man blessing us while at the same time doing not much of anything. In the absense of god, we can see what is really out there.

13 billion light-years in just about every direction of open space, filled with a trillion trillion trillion galaxies, all filled with trillions of stars. Nebulas, pulsars, supernovae, and any and all sorts of majestic wonders of creation. The size and scope of it all is dazzling and, in my opinion, FAR more impressive than some old asshole who thinks that gays should have rocks thrown at them.

And here on earth, we have a planet filled with nothing less than the complex, stunning beauty of life, surrounding us. We have each other and our communities, we have a planet that is Just Right for life (after all, if it wasn't, we wouldn't be here talking about it, would we?). We're highly evolved critters that are the products of millions and millions of years of genetic perfection and fine-tuning. And what isn't beautiful about that?

And so what if there's no afterlife? There wasn't a beforelife, and that didn't bother me any. I wasn't terribly inconvenienced by non-existence when the dinosaurs were around, so why should I care that I won't exist when we're colonizing Mars? The only thing that the belief in nothingess after death brings is the fullness of life it fills me with. Its that very feeling that lets me walk out on a beach and just take in the majesty of being alive. I don't need ghosts and goblins and hocus pocus to appreciate life. I just need the world, and the wonderful things science has taught us about it.

Hehehe. Oh yeah. We atheists are an angry, dour bunch.

 

Yes, but here's the difference. Born Agains are vehement because they're convinced that everyone who isn't them is going to hell when they die.

Some atheists, like me, are vehement because we believe, with relatively good reason to think this way, that religion will eventually be the destroyer of man. Unless it's cast off. Slight difference.

 

I could never have explained it all as well as you have, Itsthesheppy. Nicely done.

 

As a Catholic, I can with 100% assurance tell you I do not believe everyone who isn't Catholic is going to hell. Nor do any of the Catholics I know personally, including several priests and a few nuns

 

He didn't say Catholics. He said Born Again's.

i.e. Anyone who isn't a Christian, and doesn't "Accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior" is going to go to Hell.

 

Then you and all of those people are not really Catholic. Your bible, which you should know is your absolute truth, specifically states that if you do not believe in God and Jesus, that you'll go to hell. The exact quote has already been used multiple times in this thread.

So how can you think that? You've already gone against the word of the bible by saying that. Do the bible's words only apply when they are convenient for you or something?

 

"No one goes to the Lord but by me" doesn't mean anything to you? What new, interesting version of christiantity is this?

That was in the bible, btw. I should know, I've read it thrice.

 

Which is interesting. If god in infallable, then why do mortals continue to impose their interpretations on his words?

If christians were true to their faith, they'd be killing homosexuals. The moment they deviate from any instruction of the bible, they invalidate all instructions. Can't be infallable in places and fallible in others.

 

So, Sheppy...

How do you feel about Discordianism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism

Ever read the Principia Discordia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Discordia

 

I don't care how many times it's been used in this thread, it's not true as far as the Teachings of the Catholic Church go. Also, I would submit, based on your writing directly above, you might not know as much about Catholicism as you claim.

As a Catholic, in addition to believing the Bible is the inspired Word of God, Jesus Christ, the Son of God was born of the Virgin Mary thru the Power of the Holy Spirit I also believe in Natural Law as well. Moreover, I believe God's Grace and Mercy are infinite and therefore a person who's never heard of God or the Gospel but has lived their life in keeping with Natural Law has just as good a shot at Heaven as I do

More info here if you are really interested

Really? You've been designated by God, the Father to interpret Sacred Scripture for me? Apparently, based on what you've written and the questions you are asking are unaware of the Magestirium of the Catholic Church which is directed by God, the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost for those prefering the TLM) has interpreted Sacred Scripture.

Also, as a Catholic, I believe in the Sacred Traditions of the Church in addtion to Sacred Scripture. These Traditions have been passed down to us from the original 12 apostles.

Nope. What you are (would it be fair to assume, inadvertently so?) referring to is the notion of Sola Scriptura. Catholics do not adhere to this notion.

 

Because of our fallen nature.

Really? Where do you get such a notion. Please, be specific.

Really? You write as if you are a "Bible only believer" when you make such a statement

 

When I was baptised, I was born again in Christ Jesus

 

"If man Lieth with man as with a woman, they have both committed an abomination; their blood is upon them"

^^^That sure sounds like an order to kill. I dunno, maybe its supposed to be read backwards? Let's try that.

"Meht nopu si doolb..."

Nope, not making any sense that way. Huh. Maybe I'm just stupid.

The bible isn't infallible then? Be careful there... you're sounding more and more like an Atheist who's just confused.

 

Amazing that you misquoted the scripture then.

John14:6-16

Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
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If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
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Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us."
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Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
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Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
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Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
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Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.
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And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
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If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.
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"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
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And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,
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the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.


Very relevant passage of Sacred Scripture, eh?

 

This skit would fit perfectly when applied to a crazy, old, homeless guy in downtown Baltimore on a dimly lit soapbox.

On the more serious side though, all you did was correct his paraphrase with the actual quote.. which both seem the same.