Every great nation fails, is America??

I think that speech is three years old (but it has not lost its weight).
Gov. Lamm obviously had his thoughts organized and ready, waiting for the proper moment.

Yes, what he speaks of, the methods he has outlined are essentially happening everyday and they are things that I make it a point to fight against. In fact, I can tell you that about 15 years ago in Hawai’i, they would give you your eyesight test in Japanese if you don’t read English.
The signs are not in Japanese.

Someone once told me “You see, Americans enjoy the single luxury of claiming their heritage. When in America, you volunteer your ethnicity as ‘IRISH’, ‘SCOTTISH’ or what-have-you. Yet, when we travel abroad we state we’re “AMERICAN.’ ”

In discussion here in the USA, I make it a point to state that I am AMERICAN. And I have made it a point to ensure that people know where I stand on this topic.

Example #1 =
A few years back I remember someone on the phone volunteering that he was “African-American” I responded with an impressed tone, stating “Wow. I’m American – and I’ve never meet anyone with dual-citizen ship before~!”
He said in a slightly exasperated and condescending tone: “You know what I mean.”
I replied: “And you know what I mean.” (He dropped that subect, and I let him).

Example #2 =
I’ve been in bars where people state how perfect their heritage is. I admit its great to be proud of your heritage, but remember where you are.
(One example = I used to frequent “Irish Pubs” where time (and again), I hear them bad-mouth/complain about every single country and many of its denizens (including the one they are citizens of) as they go on about Ireland/Scotland (etc). I don’t argue with them, I do however state “If its so f-ing fantastic, why don’t you just move there?”

I remember a while back that Great Dane posted “Proud to be an American” by Lee Greenwood. It’s just as good as it was when first released. One I know by heart, and still sing out once in a while. I also like “In America” by the Charlie Daniels Band.

Yes people, America is called “The Land Of The Free”. Unfortunately, due to many ‘situations’, America seems to have forgotten that lesson. I’m all for freedom, and of every kind. I don’t sanction everyone’s beliefs nor alternate lifestyles, but I know they have them. I accept that fact, yet I will resist your attempts to force your opinions upon me.

To be the most powerful nation, to be the one whom everyone turns to, we need to first pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. Be responsible, we all need to admit and accept our mistakes and shortcomings, because creating short-term plans and burying problems under the rug does not create long term solutions.
They are not goals.

I think I was going somewhere with this, but in re-reading my post, I think now would be a good place to end the tirade.

~PM~

 

Very nice PM.

I was called by someone about some questionnaire thingy...they asked about Ethnicity...I asked "What do you mean?"..got the usual Caucasion then the ( ) American and such. I said, just to mess with them, I'm European American.

The woman apparently couldn't comprehend that one. She asked "What is that?" Moron.

Told her everyone else has some kind of thing before "American", what's wrong with me having one? Her response.."Oh, you are Caucasion".

"No, I'm European American".

"That is Caucasion".

Click

Not that I'm really European, though most of us are...but she just didn't get it. I was just trying to prove a point.

It seems regular Americans of my skin color are now regulated to Caucasion...everyone else gets some fancy "_____ American" thing.

If they want it that way, fine...then I think all True Americans, who don't need or wan't this extra thing added before "American" should basically kill anyone who wants this added thing.

It's the "Melting Pot". No distinctions allowed. Otherwise, I have some lead that will distinct you to a plot of ground.

"Dead _______ American".

Be American, or go home to the first part of your "______ American" distinction.

It used to be Great to be just an American.

Be one, or GET THE @*&% OUT.

Plain and simple

 

I'd have to totally agree.

 

There are more oil wells that are capped than operating in the US.
Also
There is enough oil in the pacific ocean off the coast of California to power the United States indefinetly. The problem is - it rests just underneath a whale spawning ground. Last I heard, people were trying to create a different way to drill for the oil with out distrubing the whales.

~PM~

 

Not one of you has a heritage that they can trace back to this country more than 200 years. I myself, am a first generation, naturalized citizen. My citizenship states that I am South African - American. I'm proud to be an American but I am also proud of my South African roots and heritage.

In Wisconsin, 150 years later, there is still a large German influance in our culture. All over this country each city has been shaped by the culture of those who settled there. The only true full blooded Americans are the ones living on some of the shittiest land in the poorest communities. The rest of us were brought here.

Yes it is important to be proud to be an American. But it is equally important to remember and respect where we all came from. We bring with us parts of our culture that makes this a diverse and great nation.

And who's definition of "an American" are we going to use? Do you need to be white, with a German, Irish, Scottish, or English heratige to be a real American? Or is the Indian guy who became a citizen two months ago and is working 95 hours a week at 7/11 to make a better life for his family an American? Or is it the Mexican who ran across the border illegally, does back breaking work, day in and day out, at $3.00 just because he wants a chance at a better life and some opportunity an American?

I agree that being an American goes well beyond simply living here. It is being proud to be here, being thankful for the opportunities that this great nation presents, and bringing your culture into this one.

I think the "Be Roman, or Get the Fuck Out" attitude with a specific view of what "Roman" was, is much more lightly to have brought down that civilization than one that promoted a melding and respect of the diverse cultures making up the society.

When you're so egar to kick people out, just remember that at some point in your past, your ancenstors came to this country seeking a better life and more opportunity for their families. They brought with them a heritage and a culture that is part of you today. Where would you be right now if they were told to piss off?

 

I'm going to play devils advocate for a moment. I'll put on my flame retardent equipment to be safe. I will warn that the nationalities I call out are not to be offended, I'm using history as a guide and these were the peoples that came to mind.

Immigration is what built this country to begin with. It was the influx of peoples from overseas, coming in through Ellis Island, learning, growing, and challenging the beliefs of the time to build what we have now. At that time it was "Another Irishman" or "Another Chineseman" on the block - now we complain about "Another Mexican".

What if it's not the destruction of American but the evolution of it?

I have never met such a strong, proud people as what we have here - when we are threatened, in a war we agree with, and focused. When we aren't, I have never met more selfish, selfcentered and egoistic of a people.

Once the focus leaves us we forget who we are. We are all Americans. White, Black, Purple, Green, Bug-eyed, even Horde, all are Americans. Each have the same rights.

Unfortunately the bill of rights needs updating. I suggest we update it a little.

It's not that the Mexicans, any more than any other immigrant into our country, is destroying America - it's that we as Americans are more comfortably complaining in forums than getting together and taking on the responsibilty of undoing that which no longer makes sense.

-qor72

 

All I have say is change is good you go first.

The chat is no different now then it was 100 years ago or what it was 200 years ago. The only thing that has changed was the name of Immigrant.

 

Who is an American? Ask yourself that.

Are there American-Africans? American-Mexicans?....

Not that I know of.

Everyone wants to claim some sort of "non" American heritage, yet still be an American. Why is that?

You are proud of your Heritage...fine. Why can't I be on the questionaires and such? I don't see European-American there.

Wouldn't that make it better for the Native Americans? That way people know I'm not actually really from here?

Who made America what it is? It was a group of people with a common goal....to be Free. They didn't say "Well, I'm from this part of this one country, so call me _____ American".

True, the Natives got a raw deal, and are still being treated bad....but I have nothing to do with that. As I had nothing to do with slavery. Should I say "Not my country, I'm just stuck here because I was born here and don't have the money to leave here, so I have no feelings for this place and what ever happens to this country is no big deal to me, because I'm not actually of this place"?

If I move to Africa, can I be a European-African? Or go to Japan and be a European-Japanese? These countries don't do that. At least as far as I know they don't make these distinctions. I don't think ANY other country does that.

We do it to make people feel good. And that is all it is...to make people feel good. Any Mexican-American, who is legal here, lives much better than a Mexican in Mexico, as a whole. If Mexico must be stated as who you are..why are you here? BECAUSE IT IS BETTER HERE. So why must you let others know, by some title, you are Mexican? I think most people can figure that out on their own.

What it comes down to is this distinction. What is the purpose? So you don't forget your Heritage?

I can see the days of "West Side Houston Texas Japanese Mexican European Spanish on Fifth Street at the intersection of Dutoit-American", not to be confused with the "West Side Houston Texas Japanese Mexican GERMAN Spanish on Fifth Street at the intersection of Dutoi- American". Which sucks, as these folk fight all the time...cultural differences...you know.

As Rakim from Eric B and Rakim said...."It's NOT where you're from, it's where you're AT".

So, no need for distinction. If you are an American Citizen, you are American. Do you REALLY need to add something to that?

Besides...everyone knows....American Chicks....just plain American Chicks...are the HOTTEST!!

That's why everyone comes here...the American Chicks. Kinda like Omaha Steaks for the World!! Yummy!!!!!

 

pledge of allegiance

 

You have never seen Dutch women.

 

Nice quote, Paladin. The Governor makes a few good points about some problems we have, though overall he's basically saying that leaving America the way it is will destroy it, without really addressing why this is. One thing to notice is that many of the problems he rants against are simply by-products of the fact that we are a free society. Unity can't be created through force (we tried that ~150 years ago, and almost destroyed our great society in the process), the only thing that will is if there is a cause to strengthen our unity. Historically, only two causes together have sufficed: a threat to defend the nation against (I hate to bring up 9/11, but think of the national unity that we saw after that event), and a nation worth defending, which we undoubtedly have. Peace leads to this kind of national decadence, though, and as I think a war is a hell of a lot worse than multiculturalism, I'm going to have to disagree with Governor Lamm for the most part.

Will America last forever? Probably not, nothing does. I don't see the nation failing any time soon, though. Certainly not over a bit of cultural identity clash -- that's been around since the first European set foot in the New World. Sure, we're divided, maybe even more than ever, but that's political, not cultural. I think that's mostly a good thing, though -- one-party governments generally create some pretty miserable countries to live in. I say mostly because I think that people should stand up for what they believe in rather than blindly supporting whatever their party of choice has put forth. Especially when you consider that both major political parties are contradictory and inconsistent in their platforms.

I think that if anything ever causes America to fall, it will be the end of the one thing that makes America great -- freedom. Freedom is what inspires desperate people to sneak across our borders, without it, we're just another country. Free people, free markets. Like I stated above, I don't see that going away any time soon.

You can say the Pledge of Allegiance all you want, nobody important has ever said you couldn't. My reading of the First Amendment suggests that nobody can take that right away from you. Additionally, nobody has the right to not be upset by you saying it. The only court ruling on the subject that I'm aware of regarded forcing children to say it. That was ruled unconstitutional, and I think rightly so. How are children supposed to learn about living in a free society if they never have the really important freedoms?

Heck, I strongly dislike the Pledge of Allegiance. I don't believe in God, but I don't particularly care about the "under God" part. I take issue with the "I pledge allegiance to the Flag and to the Republic" part -- that kind of thing belongs in the totalitarian society that my grandparents came here (legally) to escape. I know that I live in a great nation, I don't need to stand in front of a flag and recite a little litany every day to remind myself of it. All that said, I will defend your right to say the Pledge, even though I disagree with it, because that's what America is about to me -- freedom. Your freedom to say the Pledge is just as important to me as my freedom not to say it.

Our founding fathers may have been religious, and our Constitution undoubtedly shares common elements with Christian beliefs, but their views on the State meddling in religion were clear:

-- John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776.

-- George Washington, fragments of the Draft First Inaugural Address, April 1789.

-- George Washington, letter to the General Committee of the United Baptist Churches in Virginia, May, 1789.

-- George Washington, to the Annual meeting of Quakers, September 1789.

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to a Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, Connecticut, January 1, 1802.

Well said, this bears repeating. I was trying to say something like this above, but you've said it much better.

 

Raising three children has taught me some very valuable lessons when it comes to freedom and guidance. True, raising children is different than running a country, but I felt the lessons pertinent enough to share nonetheless.

With great freedom comes great responsibility. As a society is granted more freedom, it is incumbent upon the individual members of that society to exercise greater responsibility in their actions. In other words, the more the authority of that society withdraws it's "guidance" or "involvement" in the individual's life, the more personal policing is expected of that individual. This is directly related to the maturity and integrity of that individual and their moral character.

I think we see a good example of how this is hurting America now. In my opinion individuals are less likely to accept personal responsibility now than ever before. We see this creeping trend of the populace to expect a provided entitlement versus earning the entitlement. I recently was in a conversation with an older gentleman and we were discussing the social security issues. Of course we got on the subject of the private accounts rather than a government handled social security system. (I won't get into the pros and cons of either here; just using this as an example.) I asked him this question:

"Wouldn't you rather be self-sufficient at your retirement age than to have to rely on the US Government for your retirement income?"
To which he replied:
"No - I want the government to pay me."

I was astonished. But should I have been? This dependancy on the government is taught to us from the day we entered kindergarten.

So what is my point, you may ask? Basically this: if the governement pulls back their controls of this country the individual has to be more responsible for policing his own conduct and being responsible for his own actions. I don't really ever see this as happening. The founding fathers knew this to be fact as you can see in their writings. Symen quoted a number of writings where great men knew their personal strength to govern themselves correctly relied on their responsibility to a higher power, or their God - a higher moral authority. Today, America is relenquishing its hold on this view of a higher moral power in an individual's life and is slowly adapting a relative humanistic viewpoint that, in my opinion, dooms the very country they feel is granting them the freedom to be an individual.

It's like I told my daughters - the more freedom you have as you grow up, the more that is expected of you.

 

Well said, Mani. You're absolutely right, you cannot have freedom without responsibility. I look at it this way: Absolute freedom implies that we all have the right to do as we will. It also implies a corollary, that we all have the responsibility to ensure that everyone else has the same right and freedom. Something like the Golden Rule, I suppose.

I disagree with your point that the secularization of society dooms it. While religion provides an excellent moral framework by which to live one's life, morality can come from other sources. Ultimately, the discussion of morality leads to this: One must take responsibility for one's actions, and treat others with respect and dignity -- I didn't need religion to learn this, just firm guidance. I submit that one of the problems with our society is that there isn't enough firm guidance, whether it comes from religion or otherwise.

 

True, morality can come from other sources, but the origin of morality can arguably be said to spring forth from a non-secular beginning. Of course this threatens to again take us into an area of discussion we dealt with in another thread.

Dignity and respect for others are not inherent traits in humanity, so as you mentioned, these things require guidance from parents or others already possessing these traits.

What I fear for America is that because we are becoming more secular, the absolute is giving way to the relative thus more and more resulting in situational ethics - or, what may be right for you, is not right for me. In my mind there has to be an objective judge or we face chaos. But on the flip side, we constantly fail as a people because we err thus erasing any hope of us establishing that which I feel we so badly need: a common origin for morality that is objective and applicable to all regardless of situation.