Every great nation fails, is America??

How would you like to feel like you can't take care of your own business? You think these new laws intruding upon your privacy are uncomfortable?

Written by my former employer. Original is here.

 

We covered this pretty well in the other thread, but I'll just say that the origin of morality was arguably the Enlightenment, which was ultimately non-secular. So, you're absolutely right.

You may be right. Moral relativism is certainly a problem -- assigning blame to an increasingly secular society is conjecture, but it's possible. My own theory is that it stems from the decadence and sense of entitlement associated with post-WWII national wealth, which also lead to the decline of religion. I admit that I don't have much to back that up, though, it's also conjecture.

 

That is actually a very interesting idea Symen. After WWII we do see a dramatic change in how America dealt with its national and international policies. Isolationism, while usually considered to be a bad policy, might be a lot differently viewed if we view it through some of the points that we have discussed. I have always been a foe of Isolationism, but in light of our conversation and the concept you just introduced, I may have to rethink my opposition to that policy.

Very stimulating!

 

Chuck,

I'm not sure where this rosy picture of a United States where everyone was just an "American" with no cultural differences comes from. From it's inception there have been cultural devisions if it was simply the Irish-Americans hating the English-Americans or European-American hating Chineese-Americans.

Hell, Northern-Americans went to war against Southern-Americans over cultural and idealogical differences.

Your point about the option you check on a form is just naive and a bit silly. That option is not their to promote unity, and people didn't even fill out form earlier which is why those distinctions don't exist.

I am "African-American", I come from Africa. But I fill out caucasian. Why the hell isn't there a Chineese-American option on those forms? They have to mongaloid last time I checked. It is an ethnic category not some god damn demonstration on how none of us want to be united.

In face, is it the "American" part of the definition that shows unity rather than deversity. So stop getting your panties in a bunch because people identify with their heritage. It doesn't make you less American.

It's like when you think our president is a moron and we're at war you are 'Un-American" and "Un-Patriotic". Bullshit, you are being what it is to be an American when you stand up and critizice the governemet even when it isn't popular.

Paladin,

China as a land mass is smaller than the United States and has four times the population. So to say this country is "Populated" is not entirely correct. You're trying to say we're full and don't have room for more people?

 

Yes I was born there, which honestly makes me no more or less American than anyone else. I just came via a different route.

I don't think most of you know what it takes to become a citizen legally. Getting into this country is a bitch to begin with. The majority of people coming over on working visa's. You have to have a job before you come, the company has to sponsor you, you have to be providing a "valuable" service and not taking a job away from a real american.

If you qualify for all that shit, you're basically suck with your employer no matter how they treat you. Because if you lose that job, it's cya ya later buddy, gtfo of our country. You either have to find another generous employer right quick, and not a whole hell of a lot of them are into sponsoring immegrants due to the red tape, or go home.

Oh, an while you're here with your family, none of them can get jobs. Not your husband/wife and not your 16 year old kid who wants to make a bit of spending money.

If you're lucky a little over 5 years later you'll get a green card. If you're not and things get a bit screwed up, maybe you have to switch jobs and start the process over, you're easily looking at 7 years.

Usually around 5 or 6 years after that, you can take the little history test, and then take the oath to become a citizen.

So at absolute best with zero complications you're looking at 10.5 years to become a citizen, more typically 12+ now days. All that is swell if you have a great job and can afford the god damn lawyers.

Yeah....not a whole hell of a lot of people make it in that way. Have you ever talked to someone from Mexico who ran accross the border? About their experiances, about their lives, about why they came and what they've done here? I've had that opportunity, and I was amazed by what I learned.

But that is all besides the point. You all seem to think that because people are proud of where they came from, they aren't proud to be here and don't consider themselves Americans. That's just plane wrong. Most of the time we are all too busy living our lives to worry about such things. Of course we are different and have cultural differences. But it is part of the greater American culture. The unity is there, it is just takes a back seat to normal everyday issues we have with eachother. But when challenged, this country and all Americans regardless of from where they came pull together.

Just because the White, Black, Yellow, and Red option boxes are not longer real PC, doesn't mean you're not fucking patriotic because you check Native American, African American, or Caucasian. Hell that last one doesn't even have American in it. It's the least damn American of all of them.

 

I think ...

We're so used to having to fight each other...we're so used to being judged and being punished for the color of our skin, our eyes, our religion, our gender, our language skills and we're so used to fighting each other that we have a hard time stopping and taking a look around at the good company we're in and forgiving each other and cherishing the freedom we have here in the United States to be what we are.

That is the one thing that unifies us all...we want to be what we are without being judged and punished for it. That is the essence of freedom.

Anyone allowed into the United States should be able to accept us ...all of us, for who we are. Our religion, our skin color, our economic standing....All men were created equal(and women slightly more so ~).

One Nation under God, indivisible. Accept it, or do not enter.

 

If he lives here, he is an American.

Also, regarding China...we could learn a lesson in humility from them. OMG...how man people are crammed into how small a place? They haven't all killed each other yet? Why not? What??? respect for one another? what's that?

People I know who have visited China are astounded by the way the Chinese pull together as one on large projects. These are people we can learn from.

 

I can trace my roots back to Kentucky in 1650. My roots have been here longer then it has been the United States. My family fought in the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, and everyone in between. On the other hand I can also trace my roots back to Sweeden, Czechoslovakia, and Germany as recently as 1880 when the majority of my Great Grand Parents immigrated to the U.S. and helped settle the wild west. So the closest I can get to any Europian Heritage was 4 generations ago.

What defines my heritage? A place I have never been, with customs and traditions I don't understand? Is my heritage the struggle of a waggon train headed west? Or is my Heritage defined by my place of birth, because I certianly framiliar with the history, traditions, and customs of California, and the United States.

These are questions that I ponder all the time. When do we become Americans? When do I embrace my American Heritage? When do I stand up and proudly announce that I am a Californian-American? Or maybe I have to go back a generation or two and be a Nevada-American or a Minnisota-American?

I am offended when people ask me about my heritage, and insist that I name off some cluster fuck of europian countrys that I happen to share a distant relation to. Why can't I just say I'm American? I can assure you if I travel anywhere else in the world no one is going to look at me and say "Your Sweedish aren't you?" Their going to take one look at me and know I am an American. Maybe next time I will be African because all humans started there when they first stood upright to keep their balls from dragging in the mud. My point is how far back does it go? One gerneration? Maybe 2? 350 years? 3 million years?

In my opinion you become an American the day you stand up and say your one. In the immortal words of my friend James when some lady at the supermarket said to him: "Your kids are beutiful. Where are you from?"

"We're from San Jose, stupid bitch."

 

I have this urge to make a small clarification here...

Whoa there~! Slow down...
I was making a specific example. I live with ethnic heritage all the time. Yes, I do state that I am American, unless asked specifically what my ancestry is, I don’t mention it. (I’m not ashamed of it either – one side hails from aristocracy). However, my statement was regarding people who are eternally ungrateful and continually slight America, while bolstering a foreign nation. Unless the situation warrants otherwise, I will happily recommend they go to said nation.

Um…not sure if you wanted to type your last statement there in that precise order. Your last statement contradicted your first. I *do* accept everyone as they are, and I’ve NEVER separated a person because of their color/beliefs or any of that jazz – only how they present them. When I begin to strike up a conversation with them and/or start a relationship with the person on a regular basis - I may find that we have differences of opinions. That is acceptable. And in some instances – preferred. It is when they decide to force their opinions upon me is when I shall rebuke them. Nay…not their religion/lifestyle/color, (or what-have-you). Just them person on that topic.

To continue on that thought…Legally – if he is a US citizen, yes, he is American. However – by a morale standard (and I know that someone has taken common sense, morals and justice and hidden them within The Law, so I won’t be going into any diatribe from another thread) – his heart *can* be American. No matter what your status, you could be called “American”.
Just like we are members of –CDL– . To use an emotional hook here; when I was in high-school, I remember a quote from one man who was of Japanese descent. He (and many others) were rounded up and placed into prisons during WWII. One of the things he put down in his diary was “My skin may be yellow, but my heart is red, white and blue.”
I liked that, and it has stuck with me. (obviously)

I always say, that my kids are adopted~!

PS; is James “Calderhaus”?

~PM~

 

Dane,

Great post and you make a lot of great points that I'd like to talk about, too fuking bad I'm about to head into an all day meeting, I'll respond tonight.

 

How many people have been living here among us for many years without being official citizens? How many are here illegally? They work at jobs, they buy goods from stores, they live here. this is their home. What are they? They're Americans. They just don't have the fancy official paper work and have a tendency to be deported when caught.

And my last statement didn't contradict my first. I didn't say accept us or we will refuse you entry. I said accept us or do not enter. Choose not to enter.

 

I think that there is an important difference between the past immigration and the current illegal immigration from Mexico. When many of our "whitey" european forefathers came to this country, they did so with an important intention: becoming part of, contributing to, and helping to build a society. The main problem with the majority of immigrants from Mexico, that is the illegal immigrants, is that they have no intention of contributing to the American society. Indeed, they have a leeching effect. They pay no taxes, and yet use the constructs of our civil government & society and the benefits that can be reaped from them, without contributing to their maintenance. They put a huge drain on our hospitals, public schools, and law enforcement systems. What money they do earn here - money earned illegally - is wired back to Mexico to their families, creating a cash influx there.

I have ZERO beef with hispanic people or hispanic culture in general. If Mexicans or any other central or south american persons want to immigrate to our nation, I say please do. LEGALLY.

I DO have a big beef with persons that come here illegally. That harm our economy. That do NOT respect the society and culture that they exist inside of. That make ZERO effort to learn our language. That form and become members of gangs that work in the trafficking of drugs,persons and violence.

I think it is very telling that those persons marching for "the rights" or protections of persons here illegally, wave a flag not OUR own. They obviously hold allegiance to some place else. Last time i checked the US flag was red, white, and blue. Not red, white, and green.

Immigration laws are in place for a reason. I'm not going to say that they are "great" or "good". I've not read the legal codes that structure them. BUT they are the LEGAL guiding principles that dictate how a person or persons may come to our country. A lot of people seem to be missing the point that these people are breaking the law just by being here. When did we all stop respecting the rule of law??? It would be a shame if we threw that away for persons that have no rights or protections under it.

If i were to go to another country, with no passport, some phoney id's, and couldn't speak the language...you can be sure that I would find myself facing some serious problems. I wouldn't be able to start protests and wave the US flag around whing about my "rights" within their society and the harm they are inflicting upon my people.

I live in Texas. We have huge hispanic population. Many are new to our country, and many were born here. I have had hispanic friends and classmates, many of which were not here legally. I'm not totally detached from the "human" side of this issue. I've tried to help minister to some of these children and families, many of which live in trailer parks that have no sewage system. They are not in the best of positions. But - this does not change the facts. This does not change the law.

Hopefully this is relatively coherently written - i had a long night and just woke up.

 

Illegal immigrants are still part of the population and have an impact on everyone else here. They're americans -the unwelcomed ones.

 

Yeah, the come here to leech of the society by working 60 hour weeks at $4/hr. Good fucking call.

Honestly, posts like yours make me sad to be an American.

I'm sick of talking about shit like this cause it just pisses me off. So sorry dane, you don't get your respone.

 

I'm sorry about this hon, but I still think so. Please help me out here (Note: I'm not trying to start an argument...)

You said:

Okay, I understand what you are saying here.

Then

But what of those who do not follow monotheism? This is supposedly the Land of The Free (Which it isn't really, but it has much more freedom and is much more attractive than other nations - hence the reason why many run "across the wire")
And, to the best of my knowledge, religious and spiritual beliefs are not on the citizen exam. So they should still be allowed entrance if they are still willing to come (and hopefully 'play nice').
Right?
If I’m still missing the mark here, please let me know and we can chat about it off line if you like (I apparently don’t have a problem announcing when I don't understand something on-line.)

Thanx~!

~PM~

 

I understand your frustration. That is why I removed myself by turning off the 'auto notification' from the "religion" thread. I felt that the only way I would be able to reach select people, to have them listen with a fair ear and open would be to make them question their religious foundations.
Had I begun upon that path, I fear I would have spewed too much anger and hostility, an event that could have profound and sorrowful effects all who read those words.
That would have been unfair to so many, and I have too much respect for the beliefs of others.

~PM~

 

Forgive me. I should have been more specific.

Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.

Illegal immigrants is the term used to label those persons who live inside the borders of the United States ILLEGALLY.

I never said they don't work hard. I know very well that most hispanics have an extremely good work ethic, and their family dynamic has a reputation to be very strong, often times due to religious influences. I'm not saying that illegal immigrants are bad horrible people simply because they aren't naturalized citizens.

By rewarding the illegal immigration of some persons, I believe we both validate their actions and cheapen the value of our citizenship. This will only serve to diminish incentive for legal immigration. I do not believe that amnesty is the best or right option for a solution to the situation we find ourselves in as a nation.

My points of contention are these: Illegal immigrants take out of but never contribute to the social services programs that they are given the opportunity to partake of, i.e. medical care and public eduction. Additionally, those illegal immigrants that are incarcerated, further drain taxpayer dollars by being housed, fed, and provided a myriad of other amenities while staying at our jails and prisons. I don't think that there is too much room for misunderstanding on these points, as they are very simplistic.

I am saying that they are breaking the law by stepping foot on American soil. I am also saying that I don't believe that an individual that neither possesses citizenship rights, nor contributes to the services from which they benefit, should be rewarded for their breaking of the law by illegally immigrating.

I don't begrudge people from wanting a better life. I don't begrudge people for trying to provide for their families and loved ones. I do not, however, appreciate the fact that many illegal immigrants reap a reward from what they have no entitlement to.

Do you think that millions of children being educated in our school systems, unpaid for by their parents, has a benefitial impact on our public educational system. If you do, please share your perspective. I can think of a few possible responses, but I think they are quite flimsy?

Do you believe that millions of persons receiving expensive medical care at hospitals - medical care that they do NOT pay for - makes your or my own medical insurance any cheaper or better?

Do you think that thousands and thousands of illegal aliens being housed in our prison systems reduces the overcrowding found therein or the money it costs to maintain and build those prisons?


I would not agree with the supposition that what work illegal immigrants do do (i.e. the jobs that "Americans won't do"), has a significant enough impact on our national or state economies to counter-balance their lack of tax contributions towards the programs they benefit from, even without considering the fact that a huge chunk of the money earned by many is simply wired back across the border. If someone were able to present evidence or at least an argument to the contrary, I would be more than happy to read and discuss it.

I am sorry that what I say makes you "ashamed to be an American". I don't know if you believe that I have some great malice for others in my heart, or if you simply think that I am utterly ignorant/brain dead. Hopefully not everyone here would be convinced of either of those possibilities, because I firmly believe that what I've said has both logic and merit. I fully understand that this is a sensitive topic, and I also believe that it is a critical one. Obviously our views differ. I'm making no attempt to spit you for your views, howevermuch they might differ from mine on this case.

Hopefully the right solution can be found.