Theres no appropriate title

Ohmmy & Test,

Thank you very much, that really does mean alot to me.

Ohm,
I'll try and write you a response tonight. I didn't know if you were
trying to lead me down the "slippery slope" or if you truely are looking for
an answer. Before I sit down and write it, I would like to know your thoughts
on the {Why?}.

Thanks again you two, =)

Zabby

 

I am exploring my own thoughts on it.

Zab, if it makes you uncomfortable to discuss what I've posted, then please don't do it. I don't want to be responsible in any way for leading anyone anywhere regarding religion. That's a personal decision.

I am seeking as I have all my life to understand how we came to be the way we are, why we are here, and how we can make this world a better place for each other. I want to know what we are supposed to learn from all of this.

If in 10 years, 20, 30 you decide you want to talk, look me up! If not, I understand.

 

I have been thinking about the way these guys have been pretty harsh with me in this thread. I think about the apostles that gave their life up for the gospel. Peter, being crucified upside down while his wife was killed right in front of him. Paul, being beheaded because he refused to denounce Christ.
(Did you know he lead one of the guards to Christ as the lead him to his beheading, then the guard laid down his life for Christ).
Stephen, being stoned to death after giving one of the best sermons Christian history has ever seen or heard. (By the way, Paul was holding everyone's coats as they stoned Stephen to death.) John, being banished to the island of Patmos because he refused to denounce Christ as Lord and God.

Andrew was scourged and hung on an X shaped cross for 2 days to die.

 

Phillip-crucified
Bartholomew-crucified
Thomas-lanced and burned
Matthew-axed to death
James-thrown down from the top of the temple then clubbed to death
Jude-crucified
Simeon-crucified
Matthias-stoned and beheaded

I have often wondered if I would ever deny Christ in a difficult or life threatening situation. This thread is nothing compared to what millions of other Christians have gone through. There is a spirit within me that will neither denounce Christ as God nor will allow me to give in to the world's demands. Hopefully, if that time did ever come in my life where my life was threatened, that I would be unable to denounce Christ as my Lord. He gives me everything that I need in life and has blessed my life so much, I could never say that He is not my Lord. Those guys that I named above, all did because they saw Christ come back from the dead. There is no way that a man will give his life so that others may live. That is what Christ has done for me. May I forever be indebted to Him, for the grace that He has given me. May my words never be held back because I may offend someone. Sometimes the Truth does offend people, that nonetheless makes it nontruth.

Zab

 

I don't think anyone is being harsh. You are giving a steadfast opinion and people are giving you there steadfast opinion. Who's right? Exactly! No love lost here and I don't hold grudges - the opinion that I agree'd with you the most is when you spoke of your real life experiences, you came true from the heart and how you came to the conclusions you did - not because you read them out of a book.

...and now you go and bring up martyrdom?

Okay I'll bite:

If my familiy was being threatened - I'd do whatever it took to save their life. Whether its denouncing my faith, putting on a pink leotard and matching pumps or running naked through town square.

My Maker would understand, if not then I burn in hell knowing I kept my family safe. So be it. That's my sacrifice.

If it were just me being threatened - wow. I just don't know.

 

I've never had a problem with people being willing to die for their beliefs, it's when people want to condemn and even kill you because they think there beliefs are right and yours are wrong that I have a problem.

Jesus' life was about love and tolerance, not hate and discrimination. If he truly was the son of God, I would think it would have been a relatively small feat for Him to kill anyone who opposed Him. But that was not his way. Unfortunately, many evangelical Christians today feel the need to tell you how evil you are and how you are going to burn in hell if you don't follow their way; don't believe exactly what they believe.

I think it's a horrible distortion of Christ's message.

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus walked the earth, and no doubt in my mind that he was a wonderful man with an excellent message of peace, love for your fellow human, and tolerance of others. There is no doubt that he presented a better way to live and how to live a more fulfilling life.

Unfortunately, there is also no doubt that his teaching have been manipulated and warped to suit the self righteous desires of man. Instead of living the life that Jesus showed us, people feel the need to try and force a belief system on you. Last time I checked, Jesus never forced his views on anyone, and even in his death, he asked for the forgiveness of those that were killing him.

An amazing message, often horribly distorted and infused with hate and intolerance.

There is nothing wrong with being firm and standing firm in your beliefs, but try and remove the arrogance and superiority from your belief system, because if that doesn't go directly against anything Jesus taught, I don't know what does.

Open your eyes, look how the man lived and loved. Let your belief in Christ grow beyond just some written text that has been interpreted and manipulated to suit the desires of selfish men for 1500 years. I think that is what developing a personal relationship with Christ is all about. Going beyond what is spoon fed to you, and finding out what Christ really means in your life.

In doing so, I honestly believe you will stop condemning people for having a slightly different view of the one God and start realizing that being a Christian allows for a lot more than simply believing the word for word literal translation of the Bible.

I honestly believe that is Jesus was here today, he would tell us how ashamed he is of the way people treat other people in His name.

Just remember Zabdiel, as ardently as you believe in your faith, there is a Muslim who believes in their's. You both have irrefutable proof that you are correct, and you both would rather die than denounce your faith. You both believe that there is only one right answer, and you have it. If there is only one right answer Zabdiel, any way you slice it, you pretty much have a 50% shot of being wrong. Let us hope God is a lot greater, and more forgiving, than the limited picture that the two of you paint.

 

Sometimes, Rayzer, you take my breath away with the clarity in your thoughts and with your wisdom.

...and now time for your wedgie!

/me gives Rayzer a wedgie and runs off.

p.s. forgive me for the wedgie.

 

I think that there are somewhere close to 10,000 distinct religions in the world, no doubt most of them with adherents convinced that their way is the absolute truth and that all of the others are wrong.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

Question for Rayzer


I think it's a horrible distortion of Christ's message.

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus walked the earth, and no doubt in my mind that he was a wonderful man with an excellent message of peace, love for your fellow human, and tolerance of others. There is no doubt that he presented a better way to live and how to live a more fulfilling life.

You can't have both of them....
Either Jesus was a lunatic or He is the Son of God. He is the one that said that He was. He is the one that said He is the only way to heaven.

Please don't put words in my mouth thinking this came from me, it came from Christ.

So which is it?

 

If you're going to quote a specific passage from his post, Quote the whole context of the passage. Here, I'll do it for you.

The portion in Blue that you seemed to take the most offense to, is referring to the portion in Bold that I highlighted for you.

Nowhere in Rayzer's post did he say that Jesus was not the son of god.

Here's another passage that is very fitting:

 

Is it possible we are all sons and daughters of God? And when he said he is the only way to heaven, is it possible he meant we should all live as he did? Could he have meant his way of life, his philosophy, his tolerance and forgiveness of others is the way to heaven?

 

Fumbles Around............................................................ bangs head....OuCh..................................................some mumbles curses............................................................................................................................................

Oh I cant Find It Where is the Plug for this thread so i can pull it out

 

Ohm,
I don't see how the scriptures support that point of view.

For example John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

The word begotten here means the only -(one and only) in the orginal Greek text.

I can provide you a couple of more here if you would like.

Zabby

 

Then who the hell does the prayer refer to that begins: "Our father, who art in heaven..." because my dad sure as hell isn't dead.

Does that sound consistent to you?

 

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking-could you be more specific?

 

He's saying the prayer that begins "Our Father who art in Heaven" supports what I said about us all being sons and daughters of God and that the scriptures you quoted aren't consistent with the wording of that prayer.

 

Then who is this heavenly father referred to in prayer? Why is he referred to as father if none of us are his children? From what you have said, the scriptures do not support this notion, but common prayers seem indicate otherwise. Which is right? Why do they conflict with each other? Does the bible define the father-child relationship differently than normal society?

Edit: The entire concept of the bible is too inconsistent, vague and too open to interpretation with no concrete proof. Maybe I'm just too pragmatic, but "Have faith." and "You just have to believe it to be true." don't quite cover it for me.

 

Actually Zabdiel, <b>you</b> can't have them both. I on the other hand, have no problem reconciling the situation.

Allow me to quote myself since you conveniently chose to ignore the point of my post.

I will pray for you Zabdiel that you come to see the Truth. I just hope it happens before you die so that you can truly enjoy God's grace instead of burning in hell for distorting the teachings of Christ.

 

In case you missed it, that last part was to demonstrate how annoying it is when people assume there is only one path and condem you for choosing a slightly different one.