Who's going to Hell? Let's have a show of hands...come on, raise them up high!!!

Aeternus,

Allow me to quote myself.

The rest of your post went something like, "yadda, yadda, yadda".

 

Actually, it's nothing like the sun rising and falling. That is a scientifically provable fact. Although, the Earth revolving around the sun and on it's axis would be a more accurate answer to why that happens.

However, Christianity, like all religions, is based on <b>faith</b>. That is, <i>belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence</i>. The way you get to heaven as a Christian is through <b>faith</b> in Jesus Christ, not through scientifically proven evidence of His divinity.

So Hamma is right, you cannot prove to him that you are correct, because without the <b>faith</b> it would be pointless. You sir Strygun, are missing the boat.

And it is my <b>faith</b> in God, that allows me to know that She is not as intolerant as you all make Her out to be.

 

And you're wrong again! Interesting that you think it's okay to differ from other Christians here but want to stick with the fundamentalists when it comes to repect and tolerance of other faiths.

Anywho, the Catholics believe that the Pope is infallible. That does not mean he is without sin nor perfect since Catholics also believe we are born with original sin. It means he is incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals. That is, when the pope makes a decision about how to interpret things, he is not wrong.

Now, whether or not you agree with that is again your choice. But if you can pick and choose some aspect of the faith, well, gee, that's an interesting box to open.

 

Well, the qoute of your quote doesn't work, but I did indeed read that. I figured you would respond with something along those lines. All I did was give you a reasoned logical argument, but if you don't want to reason it out with me, that's your perogative.

 

Ok..so I just saw this. To me it seems that you are saying that the picking and choosing of particular parts out of the whole to believe in is faulty reasoning. Is this accurate? That's how I read your statement. Please let me know what you mean here.

 

Christianity didn't exist 2000 years ago. At any given time over 4 billion people in this world firmly believe they have a correct version of the truth about God, they have proof to back it up. Many of them devoting their entire lives to the that pursit and study. They disagree with you.

Yet you insist that you have the one any only way to achive heaven, enlightenment, nirvana, whatever you wish to call it. And you're willing to openly condemn other people because of it. To me, that is the hight of arrogance, a virtue I never knew to be demonstrated but one of the greatest men to walk the earth, Jesus Christ.

I don't think your beliefs or your faiths are wrong. I think you're amazingly short sighted for not being able to see the validity of others. And I feel sorry for you because your faith is not one that can stand up to multiple paths to the same goal. Which would be the betterment of our lives here on earth, and a greater understanding of the divine.

An all seeing, all knowing, all powerful God, creator of the universe. Only one way to commune with God. Seems a bit limited to me. Arrogent as well considering we're only tiny specs of carbon amongst billions of planets.

Again, I don't have a problem with the path you choose to worship God. I think you're a prick for not giving that same respect to those of a different faith. Instead of communicating with them in an open and honest dialog where you might both grow and learn something about yourselves and God, you want to convert them to your way, because they're obviously going to Hell if you don't.

Stop believing what you are spoon fed and open your mind to the possibility that God just may be even greater than you imagined. It doesn't have to mean that you are wrong, it simply means that "they" can be right too.

 

Rayzer... I'm not allowed to differ from other Christians on non-fundamental truths?

 

That's just my point. Of course you are. There are thousands of differences of opinions on interpretations of the Christian faith within Christianity. In fact, what the fundamental truths are also differs.

You seem to feel that Christianity is the only way. All the Jews, Muslims, Hindus and other heratics are going to burn in hell. That is a fundamental truth. However, I know many actively practicing Christians that disagree with you.

I guess we'll find out when we die

 

Well, as far as I am concerned, there are core beliefs of the Christian faith that all denominations believe.

One of them is that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. Period. That is one of the things that makes a Christian Christian. If you don't believe that...well...I'm not in a position to say you're not a Christian, but you should go check your facts against the Bible.

I'm gonna bail out of this conversation. I'm way outnumbered

 

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0134.html

 

*I know the topic of this thread has some what changed now. I started to write this when the thread just turned into 2 pages, but this is what I’ve found from some of my study of the bible. I know it’s kind of long but there is no real easy way to explain such a topic.*

After Solomon observed that the living know that they will die, he wrote: “As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” He then expanded on that basic truth by saying that the dead can neither love nor hate and that “there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in the grave (She´ol).” ( Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10)

In the same way, Psalm 146:4 says that when a man dies, “his thoughts do perish.” We are mortal and do not survive the death of our body. Our life is like the flame of a candle. When the flame is put out, it does not go anywhere. It is simply gone.

Jesus Christ spoke about the condition of the dead. When talking about Lazarus, a man who he knew well and who died. Jesus told his disciples: “Lazarus our friend has gone to rest.” The disciples thought that Jesus meant that Lazarus was resting in sleep, recovering from an illness. They were wrong. Jesus explained: “Lazarus has died.” (John 11:11-14)

Jesus compared death to rest and sleep. Lazarus was neither in heaven nor in a burning hell. He was not meeting angels or ancestors. Lazarus was not being reborn as another human. He was at rest in death, as though in a deep sleep without dreams. After Jesus resurrected Lazarus there is no recorded account in any part of the bible that tells us Lazarus himself was in heaven or hell and what it looked like or how it felt. Lazarus never told anyone he saw God or Satan and if he was a friend of Jesus we can assume he was a good man and “would go to heaven.” So was it fair of Jesus to take him back out of heaven to live life just to die again here on earth again? Lazarus made no mention of any of those things.

Other scriptures also compare death to sleep. For example, when the disciple Stephen was stoned to death, the Bible says that he “fell asleep.” (Acts 7:60) Likewise, the apostle Paul wrote about some in his day who had “fallen asleep” in death. (1 Corinthians 15:6) We basically become worm food after we die.

So, was it God’s original purpose for people to die? Go back to the beginning of the bible. God placed the first human couple in a wonderful paradise. He blessed them with perfect health. God wanted only good for them. Does any loving parent want his children to suffer the pain of old age and death? Of course not. God loved his children and wanted them to enjoy endless happiness on here, on earth. The Bible says: “He has also set eternity in the hearts of men” (Ecclesiastes 3:11) God created us with the desire to live forever. And he has opened the way for that desire to be fulfilled through the ransom sacrifice.

So why do humans die? I’m sure we all know about Adam and Eve. In Genesis 2:9 it says, “God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.” However, there was one restriction. God told Adam: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:16, 17)

I don’t know about any of you but that does not difficult to obey. There were many other trees which Adam and Eve could of ate from. But they now received a special opportunity to show their gratitude to the One who had given them everything, including perfect life. Their obedience would also show that they respected the authority of their heavenly Father and his universal sovereignty and that they wanted his loving direction. Sadly, with the free will that God gave them, the first human couple chose to disobey God.

Speaking through a serpent, Satan asked Eve: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘you must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.’” At this the serpent said to the woman: “you positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.” (Genesis 3:1-5)

Satan wanted Eve to believe that she would benefit by eating the forbidden fruit. According to him, she could decide for herself what was right and what was wrong; she could do what she wanted and didn’t have to listen to God. Satan also said that God had lied about the consequences of eating the fruit. Satan out right lied about that, that was the very first lie. Eve believed Satan. She picked some of the fruit and ate it and then gave some to her husband. They knew that they were doing exactly what God had told them not to do. By eating the fruit, they deliberately disobeyed a simple and reasonable command. How would you feel if you raised and cared for a son or a daughter who then disobeyed you in a way that showed that he or she had no respect or love for you?

After confronting Adam with his disobedience. God said: “You [will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) God had made Adam from the dust of the ground. (Genesis 2:7) Before that, Adam did not exist. Therefore, when God said that Adam would return to the dust, He meant that Adam would return to a state of nonexistence. Adam would be as lifeless as the dust from which he was made. Adam and Eve could have been alive today because they would be perfect and never would of died, but they died because they chose to disobey God and thus sinned. The reason we die is that Adam’s sinful condition as well as death was passed on to all of his descendants. Which is all of us. (Romans 5:12) Sin is like a terrible inherited disease from which no one can escape. Its consequence, death, is a curse. But God provided the ransom to rescue us from this “curse.” The bible also calls death an enemy. An enemy none of us can outrun it or fight it off.

I find what the Bible teaches about the condition of the dead comforting. Because I don’t have to wonder if my mother, baby niece, aunt, grand-father, or anyone else I know and love that has died will be burning in hell. Because the bible shows us the dead do not suffer pain or heartache. There is no reason to be afraid of them, they can’t harm us. They do not need our help, and they can’t help us. We can’t speak with them, and they can’t speak with us.

Some religions teach that if a person lives a bad life, after death he will go to a place of fiery torment to suffer forever. How would you feel about a father who punished a disobedient child by holding his hands in a fire? Would you respect that man? Satan wants us to believe that God tortures people in fire forever for countless billions of years. Satan also uses some religions to teach that after death people become spirits who must be respected and honored by the living. According to this teaching, the spirits of the dead can become powerful friends or terrible enemies. Many people believe this. They fear the dead and give them honor and worship. But, the Bible teaches that the dead are sleeping and that we should worship only God, our Creator. (Revelation 4:11)

What happens then when we die if we don’t go anywhere? Like I think I said earlier, the bible calls death an enemy, but God is far more powerful than death. He is the loving Rescuer who has already shown that he can defeat this enemy. And he promises to destroy this enemy, death, once and for all. The Bible teaches: “As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.” (1 Corinthians 15:26) God promises that the dead will live again. (Isaiah 26:19) They will be brought back to life. That is the hope of the resurrection.

When Jesus was in Jerusalem, Jesus used to visit Lazarus and his sisters, Mary and Martha, who lived in the nearby town of Bethany. They became close friends. How did Jesus feel about losing his friend Lazarus? The account tells us that Jesus joined Lazarus’ relatives and friends as they grieved over this loss. Seeing them, Jesus was deeply moved. He “groaned in the spirit and became troubled.” Then, the account says, “Jesus gave way to tears.” (John 11:33, 35) Jesus knew he could and would resurrect his friend, still, he felt the pain and sorrow that death brings. It teaches us that Jesus and his Father, God, hate death. But God is able to fight and overcome that enemy.

Lazarus had been buried in a cave, and Jesus asked that the stone sealing its entrance be taken away. Martha objected because after four days, Lazarus’ body must have begun to decay. From a human standpoint, what hope was there? The stone was rolled away, and Jesus cried out with a loud voice: “Lazarus, come on out!” What happened? “The man that had been dead came out.” ( John 11:43, 44 ) Jesus did not claim to perform this amazing miracle on his own. In his prayer just before calling out to Lazarus, he made it clear that God was the Source of the resurrection. (John 11:41, 42)

The Bible teaches that the dead “are conscious of nothing at all.” They are not alive and have no conscious existence anywhere. The account of Lazarus confirms this. Upon returning to life, did Lazarus thrill people with descriptions of heaven? Or did he terrify them with horrible tales about a burning hell? No. The Bible contains no such words from Lazarus. During the four days that he was dead, he had been “conscious of nothing at all.” ( Ecclesiastes 9:5 ) The account of Lazarus also teaches us that the resurrection is real and not a mere myth. Jesus resurrected Lazarus in front of a crowd of eyewitnesses. Even the religious leaders, who hated Jesus, did not deny this miracle. Instead, they said: “What are we to do, because this man [Jesus] performs many signs?” (John 11:47)

Jesus taught that someday “all those in the memorial tombs” will be resurrected. (John 5:28-29) God is the Creator of all life. Is it hard to believe that he can re-create life? The Bible teaches that he is eager to raise the dead. Job asked: “If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?” Job was speaking about waiting in the grave until the time came for God to remember him. He said to God: “You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.” (Job 14:13-15) God actually yearns to bring the dead back to life. The bible’s resurrection accounts teach us much about the resurrection to come. People who were restored to life right here on earth were reunited with their loved ones. The future resurrection will be similar, but much better.

*continued*

 

*continued*

God’s purpose is that the whole earth be made into a paradise. So the dead will not be resurrected to life in a world filled with war, crime, and sickness. They will have an opportunity to live forever on this earth in peaceful and happy conditions. That’s what I’m looking forward for. I perfect earth where there is no war, crime, or death and my mother, baby niece, aunt, and grand-father will be resurrected to life again and I’ll be able to see them and live with them here on earth again and forever.

Who does the bible say will be resurrected? Jesus said that “all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out.” (John 5:28, 29) Similarly, Revelation 20:13 says: “The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them.” “Hades” refers to the common grave of mankind. This collective grave will be emptied. All those billions who rest there will live again. The apostle Paul said: “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15)

“The righteous” include many of the people we read about in the bible who lived before Jesus came to the earth. You might think of Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Ruth, Esther, and many others. Some of these men and women are talked in the 11th chapter of Hebrews. But “the righteous” also include God’s servants who die in our time. Thanks to the resurrection hope, we may be freed from any dread of dying. (Hebrews 2:15)

What about all the people who did not serve or obey God because they never knew about him? Like all the tribes that have never had any contact with humans like someone said earlier. These billions of “unrighteous” ones will not be forgotten. They too will be resurrected and given time to learn about the true God and to serve him. During a period of a thousand years, the dead will be resurrected and given an opportunity to join faithful humans on earth in serving God. It will be a wonderful time. This period is what the Bible refers to as Judgment Day.

Does this mean that every human who ever lived will be resurrected? No. The bible says that some of the dead are in “Gehenna.” (Luke 12:5) Some bible translations confusingly replace Gehenna with Hell. Gehenna got its name from a garbage dump located outside of ancient Jerusalem. Dead bodies and garbage were burned there. The dead whose bodies were thrown there were considered by the Jews to be unworthy of a burial and a resurrection. So Gehenna is a fitting symbol of everlasting destruction. A state of nonexistence with no chance of resurrection. Although Jesus will have a role in judging the living and the dead, God is the final Judge. (Acts 10:42) He will never resurrect those whom he judges to be wicked and unwilling to change.

The bible also refers to another kind of resurrection, one to life as a spirit creature in heaven. Only one example of this type of resurrection is recorded in the Bible, that of Jesus Christ. After Jesus was put to death as a human, God did not allow His faithful Son to remain in the grave. (Psalm 16:10) God resurrected Jesus, but not as a human. The apostle Peter explains that Christ was “put to death in the flesh, but . . . made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Jesus was alive again as a spirit person. (1 Corinthians 15:3-6) Jesus was the first ever to receive this type of resurrection. (John 3:13) But he would not be the last.

Knowing that he would soon return to heaven, Jesus told his faithful followers that he would “prepare a place” for them there. (John 14:2) Jesus referred to those going to heaven as his “little flock.” (Luke 12:32) According to Revelation 14:1, the apostle John says: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb (Jesus) standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.” These 144,000 Christians, including Jesus’ faithful apostles, are raised to life in heaven. When does their resurrection take place? The apostle Paul wrote that it would occur during the time of Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23) We are now living in that time. So those few remaining ones of the 144,000 who die in our day are instantly resurrected to life in heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:51-55) The vast majority of mankind, however, have the prospect of being resurrected in the future to life in Paradise on earth.God will defeat the enemy death, and it will be gone forever. (Isaiah 25:8)

What will those resurrected to heaven do there? They will form part of a Kingdom government in heaven. Jesus Christ spoke about the Kingdom of God, which will bring an end to wickedness and make the earth a paradise. People wanted to know when the Kingdom would come. Jesus’ disciples asked him: “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Matthew 24:3) In reply Jesus told them that only God knew exactly when the end of this system of things would come. (Matthew 24:36) But Jesus did foretell things that would take place on earth just before the Kingdom would bring true peace and security to mankind. What he foretold is now taking place.

“Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom.” (Matthew 24:7) Millions of people have been killed in wars during the past century. A British historian, Eric Hobsbawm wrote in his book “War and Peace in the 20th Century”: “The 20th century was the most murderous in recorded history. . . . It was a century of almost unbroken war, with few and brief periods without organised armed conflict somewhere.” A report from the Worldwatch Institute states: “Three times as many people fell victim to war in the 20th century as in all the wars from the first century AD to 1899.” More than 100 million people have died as a result of wars since 1914. Even if we know the sorrow of losing one loved one in warfare, we can only imagine such misery and pain multiplied millions of times over that God feels.

“There will be food shortages.” ( also Matthew 24:7) Researchers say that food production has increased greatly during the past 30 years. Yet, food shortages continue because many people do not have enough money to buy food or land on which to raise crops. In 3rd world countries, over a billion people have to live on an income of a dollar or less a day. The majority of these suffer from chronic hunger. The World Health Organization estimates that malnutrition plays a major role in the deaths of more than five million children each year.

“There will be great earthquakes.” (Luke 21:11) According to the U.S. Geological Survey, since 1990 alone an average of 17 earthquakes per year have been powerful enough to damage buildings and crack the ground. And on an average, earthquakes strong enough to cause total destruction of buildings have occurred yearly. Earthquakes have claimed hundreds of thousands of lives in the last 100 years and improvements in technology have only slightly reduced the death toll.

“There will be . . . pestilences.” ( also Luke 21:11) Despite medical advances, old and new diseases plague mankind. Well-known diseases including tuberculosis, malaria, and cholera have become more common in recent decades, and some types of disease are more and more difficult to cure by means of drugs. New diseases have appeared. Some of them have no known cure and are fatal.

So the “little flock” (144,000) are faithful followers of Jesus Christ specially chosen to rule in heaven with him. After being raised out of death to heavenly life, “they are to rule as kings over the earth” along with Jesus. I’m sure most of you are familiar with the prayer that many call the Our Father, or the Lord’s Prayer. It’s the famous prayer given as a model by Jesus Christ himself. (Matthew 6:9-13) In the last part, “Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” We pray that God bring his kingdom, with Jesus and the 144,000 resurrected to heaven to rule as kings over heaven and earth to bring God’s will, a perfect and never ending life on a paradise earth.

It's my hope that I'll be resurrected along with my dead loved ones in a perfect paradise earth where there will be no war, crime, sickness or death.

 

Ivan

 

I found this an interesting read on my original point, how many beliefs have a concept of hell; Wikipedia's article on Hell.

A few years after I got married by brother-in-law went through a crisis of faith, my term for it anyway. He spent six months trying to "save my soul" from hell. It was his belief, that since I did not share his belief, that his belief doomed me to hell. From what I understand of his convictions, this was mostly accurate.

Saddly, I find the "must be in hell" or "must be in heaven" rather elitist. Why do we have to deal in absolutes even in death? Give you an example; an assassin who kills hundreds of people during his life, without remorse, finds himself with a terminal illness and at the last moment confesses his sins to a priest who absolves him of Sin.

Heaven or Hell?

A good person who spends their life toiling for their family. Providing food, home, education and a chance for a "good life" but doesn't go to church, or uphold the other rigors of any given religion.

Heaven or Hell?

The perspective of your faith will decide those answers. For my brother-in-law, the first guy would go to Heaven and the second would be doomed to Hell. Personally, I find that backwards. Even if you repent "at the last second", I think you need to work it off. And the good person who did nothing wrong shouldn't be doomed because they chose an alternate path.

-qor72

 

I will attempt to be respond to your post, Rayzer, even though it doesn’t seem to be completely on topic to my original post to you. I’m not trying to tackle the obvious stumbling block in all of this: your belief that everyone can be right; the relativity of truth. That was not the point of my argument to you (it was more specific), and if you would read my earlier post and what I’ve tried to say here, I think that it should be evident.

They disagree with me on what point? That Jesus is the Messiah? That he is as he claimed to be – the Son of God and the only path to relationship with God? Yes, they probably do disagree. I never said they didn’t and my argument wasn’t that they didn’t. I argued that your earlier statement was incongruous with the basic tenets of Christ’s teachings as well as the basis of Judaism. I didn’t ask what the rest of the world thought. I argued a point in hopes that you would discuss with me in reasonable terms why you believe what you stated; using intelligent discussion.

The Christ, or Messiah, is the culmination of Judaism, which I dare say is older than 2000 years. Depending on dating, that’s a total of over at least 4000 years – using Abraham as the starting point.

Please quote me as to when I condemned anyone. I have never held to the position that I have any authority to hold judgment over anyone, nor have I attempted to. I've stated my beliefs, just as many others have done here. I've said that there are consequences for our actions - if you take offense to that, so be it. It is a principle of our physical lives that I strongly believe carries over into our spiritual lives, and it’s a point that Jesus openly spoke about. If you don't believe the same, then it shouldn’t bother you - you'll not have to face any consequences if you are correct in your belief.

I don't believe, and you've not given me an argument - other that the underlying supposition that all truth is subjective and what you make of it - that my own beliefs are limited or weak. My beliefs result not only in aspiring to a greater understanding of God and a more intimate relationship with Him, but they also require the living of an honest and real life in view of those around me that I might pursue a deepening of relationship, an exhortation of truth, and to increase in others a desire to pursue God because of the love He has shown us. Jesus called his followers to love one another, to love their neighbors, and to love God. If you believe that’s short sighted….Attempting to accept, love, and interact with someone on the basis of respect does not require acceptance and reinforcement of everything that they believe in or stand for. For example, if you’re a parent or even know a parent, I think you could agree that loving your child doesn’t mean agreeing with them or giving in to everything they feel they are entitled to or believe that they should do.

I was simply repeating what Jesus taught to be true in order to refute your statement. If you don't accept it, that's within your rights. If you’d like to argue differently, go ahead. I’m curious to see what contextual evidence you would use to support your statement. You cannot, however, separate His teachings from Him - something that you stated was perfectly reasonable. I might just as easily say that Hitler was a gentle man who loved Jews and did much to help them. This would be an equally erroneous statement. Both the previous statement about Hitler, and the statement in your previous post ignore the words and actions of the individuals in question.

If you want to claim that my disbelief in others belief systems equates to my not respecting the individual, I would disagree. If that is true, then you are disrespecting me by believing differently than I do. I do respect everyone here as a person who has the right to hold to the belief that they choose. We are blessed by living in a country that allows for freedom of belief and of worship. That does not mean I’m required to hold to same beliefs as them, nor am I required to pander to the desire for a life without consequences.

You state that I'm unwilling to have a discussion on spiritual matters, yet I'm the one who put forth an argument that you have yet to present a reasoned defense to or argument against - its the one you said went 'yada yada yada'. I cited a specific textual passage as well as gave you an overarching analysis of a related and mutually supporting belief system to buttress my argument. Within the context of the discussion, my points are completely valid. Granted, it’s brief and by no means comprehensive, but I believe that it’s more than you’ve put forward in response.

Here you insinuate that I lack the reasoning power and intelligence to decide to process and analyze what I'm told. You know next to nothing about me or my history, so how is that you are qualified, Rayzer, to make such a statement? Preconception and prejudice? If you do so simply because I believe differently from you, then I hold that your insinuation is baseless.

In conclusion: I feel like you've acted antogonistically towards me, not for the first time, but I'd be happy to continue a discussion with you, Rayzer if you decide you'd like to have one. You have, however, just called me an unintelligent, arrogant, prick who blindly accepts what he's told and who refuses to engage in discussion concerning things of significance. I disagree on all points , and will end my response here. I await your response and hope that we can, should the opportunity arise, have a courteous discussion.

 

The message of Jesus, indeed the whole story of the Bible, was that one cannot do anything by themselves to earn salvation. Because of this, it had to be given to us from God through the death and resurrection of Jesus. To me, this isn't elitist - is egalitarian. No one is excluded from the availabilty of salvation. No one who chooses is turned away. All are freely offered the gift, but they must accept.

That, to me, is a lot easier than attempting to 'work off' my sins. Is there anyway I could know how many times I've sinned and screwed up across the course of my life? Do i do 1 good deed to make up for 1 bad one? or do i do 2? maybe 3? What hierarchy of screw ups and sins are there and what corresponding good deeds make up for them? Is God making a list and i've got to cover all of them to make it in? or even i somehow manage to do more 'good' than 'bad', am i even assured a place in heaven?

I'll take the free gift and the peace of mind and spirit.